MotoGP
- Thread starter brian66
- Start date
I reckon it's because of World superbikes which keep getting faster. Remember a few years ago when Steve Hislop lapped faster on what was basicaly a souped up proddie bike than Rossie on a moto gp. I think it was Silverstone. also the banning of a private team from using a R1. Moto Gp must be seen to be the pinnacle or we will be back in the 90's when crowd numbers were well down.
What the Doctor had to say about it:
ROSSI: 800CC MOTOGP'S BIGGEST MISTAKE FOR 15 YEARS
Valentino Rossi has labelled the decision to cut MotoGP engine capacity from 990cc to 800cc for 2007 as 'the biggest mistake in the last 15 years'.
In an interview with Dennis Noyes for Spain's Motociclismo publication, the reigning six time MotoGP world champion - a premier-class title winner on a 500cc two-stroke, then 990cc and 800cc four-strokes - stated:
“The 990 motorcycle was 'rough' and wild, but with a great motor and a lot power. The 800 is worse, simply worse, it is the same motorcycle with less power. I was very sad at the beginning, now it has improved, yes... But the power from the 990 made it a lot more fun".
Rossi was then asked how the show can be improved for fans watching trackside and on TV - and has answer made painful reading for those behind the change to 800cc.
"For me the spectacle with the 990 was the same as with the 500. There were big battles and large slides - this is what the public wants, no? The 990 slid a lot on the entry to the turns, but above all on the exit of the corners.
“With the 800... I believe that the 800 are the biggest mistake the world championship has made in the last 15 years. We have lost a great part of the spectacle and part of this is because electronics have advanced so much.
“For me the manufacturers committed a great error when they changed to 800cc. The 990s were better in every way.â€
ROSSI: 800CC MOTOGP'S BIGGEST MISTAKE FOR 15 YEARS
Valentino Rossi has labelled the decision to cut MotoGP engine capacity from 990cc to 800cc for 2007 as 'the biggest mistake in the last 15 years'.
In an interview with Dennis Noyes for Spain's Motociclismo publication, the reigning six time MotoGP world champion - a premier-class title winner on a 500cc two-stroke, then 990cc and 800cc four-strokes - stated:
“The 990 motorcycle was 'rough' and wild, but with a great motor and a lot power. The 800 is worse, simply worse, it is the same motorcycle with less power. I was very sad at the beginning, now it has improved, yes... But the power from the 990 made it a lot more fun".
Rossi was then asked how the show can be improved for fans watching trackside and on TV - and has answer made painful reading for those behind the change to 800cc.
"For me the spectacle with the 990 was the same as with the 500. There were big battles and large slides - this is what the public wants, no? The 990 slid a lot on the entry to the turns, but above all on the exit of the corners.
“With the 800... I believe that the 800 are the biggest mistake the world championship has made in the last 15 years. We have lost a great part of the spectacle and part of this is because electronics have advanced so much.
“For me the manufacturers committed a great error when they changed to 800cc. The 990s were better in every way.â€
It’s hard to work out the minds of the FIM and their reasoning. They sometimes claim safety but it is claimed by many journalists that they are influenced by the riders and also the Japanese factories. Mainly Honda.
Honda have failed badly since moving to 800 cc which has been claimed to be a result of their lobbying the FIM for the 800cc limit , so I think they now want to go to a capacity where they are comfortable and think they can start to win more races.
It is on record that most of the MotoGP riders want to go to the larger capacity bikes and most do not want any electronics at all so those statements would have some influence also
It is also true that super bikes are almost lapping as fast as MotoGP at some circuits.
The fastest lap time at the Phillip Island MotoGP race in 2009 was Rossi at 1.30.085.
For an example of how close the times are getting, at the 2009 Australian GP support races. A local rider Wayne Maxwell, on an Australian championship specification CBR1000RR production super bike did a 1.32.316 lap. Just 2.235 seconds slower than Rossi’s fastest lap.
Maxwell would have placed 11th in the MotoGP race, based on his total race time. Remember he was on a production super bike. Australian specification superbikes are way under world super bike specifications.
The world super bike fastest lap for Philip Island is held by Regis Lacconi on a Ducati 1098 set in February 2009 at 1.31.050. Less than 1 second slower than Rossi’s best time in the race.
MotoGP had to do something or the super bikes will be faster and that would be an embarrassment !!
Honda have failed badly since moving to 800 cc which has been claimed to be a result of their lobbying the FIM for the 800cc limit , so I think they now want to go to a capacity where they are comfortable and think they can start to win more races.
It is on record that most of the MotoGP riders want to go to the larger capacity bikes and most do not want any electronics at all so those statements would have some influence also
It is also true that super bikes are almost lapping as fast as MotoGP at some circuits.
The fastest lap time at the Phillip Island MotoGP race in 2009 was Rossi at 1.30.085.
For an example of how close the times are getting, at the 2009 Australian GP support races. A local rider Wayne Maxwell, on an Australian championship specification CBR1000RR production super bike did a 1.32.316 lap. Just 2.235 seconds slower than Rossi’s fastest lap.
Maxwell would have placed 11th in the MotoGP race, based on his total race time. Remember he was on a production super bike. Australian specification superbikes are way under world super bike specifications.
The world super bike fastest lap for Philip Island is held by Regis Lacconi on a Ducati 1098 set in February 2009 at 1.31.050. Less than 1 second slower than Rossi’s best time in the race.
MotoGP had to do something or the super bikes will be faster and that would be an embarrassment !!
Personally, I like to see them rotate through displacements every several years. MotoGP is the "laboratory" and forcing factories and teams to adjust to less and eke out comparable and/or better lap times spurns innovation and new approaches that may not be attempted with the luxury of more CC.
Paradoxically, even though the sport is inherently risky, the teams are very risk averse with technology and going out on a limb for fear of making a blunder and blowing the season. But if everybody is hacked down a notch............may the best team win (and adapt).
Hard to argue with the Dr. as a rider, but technically I don't think the move to 800cc was the disaster he says it is. The knowledge gained during its mandate/development is forever and can now be applied to 990cc and beyond.
Paradoxically, even though the sport is inherently risky, the teams are very risk averse with technology and going out on a limb for fear of making a blunder and blowing the season. But if everybody is hacked down a notch............may the best team win (and adapt).
Hard to argue with the Dr. as a rider, but technically I don't think the move to 800cc was the disaster he says it is. The knowledge gained during its mandate/development is forever and can now be applied to 990cc and beyond.
I can understand completely why the riders state they would like the larger capacity bikes without electronics.
Even though these guys are now the top riders in the world, when they were kids, they started riding then racing bikes for fun. Most young guys want to do more than just ride along at a sedate speed with the bike rock solid beneath them. The guys who like to feel the bike doing something are the guys who race. The rest are the spectators.
They want to feel the bike move around. Spin the back wheel, do wheelies and stoppies and if you are capable slide the back end.
I was one of those guys as a teenager so I began racing. I raced Z1 super bikes in the seventies. Over the years, I owned and raced 250 GP Hondas. 400 CC two strokes, many production bikes, an RC 30 Honda, an RG 500 GP bike and a bunch of other bikes. I even raced a Goldwing once !!
Of all the bikes I raced, the big worked super bikes were the most FUN. The 250’s were all about corner speed and being smooth. My 250 GP bike lap times were almost equal and sometimes faster than my super bike lap times. However, riding the super bike was a lot more fun than the 250 GP bike.
The Super bikes couldn’t corner anywhere near as fast as the 250. They had to be braked more and mostly braked while upright, turned in late and picked upright early on the exit and on the throttle hard. All this made for a lot of fun as the bike was all over the place. Bucking, weaving and pulling small power wheelies on a lean on the exit. This rarely happens on a 250 GP bike other than the weaving caused by the tyre loosing grip.
This is what the current MotoGP rider wants to feel again. They want to have some fun as well as win a race. Now they just open the throttle and the bike is controlled to a greater extent by electronics. Stoners Ducati may be an exception in the electronics department as he was power sliding that bike at most circuits and that can't happen if the electronics are cutting the power.
I ride track days at the Pasir Gudang circuit in Malaysia and the 600 cc bikes are much faster than i on my worked CBR1000RR through the corners.
As could be expected with a much more powerful bike, It is only through the corners that they can pass me, I make it all up again down the straights which can be a bit embarrassing to talk about back in the pits, but I have a ball as my bike will lift the front wheel at half lean on most long corners and it is easy to slide the back end. It’s the fun factor that makes me ride the bike and that is what the MotoGP riders want back. FUN.
Even though these guys are now the top riders in the world, when they were kids, they started riding then racing bikes for fun. Most young guys want to do more than just ride along at a sedate speed with the bike rock solid beneath them. The guys who like to feel the bike doing something are the guys who race. The rest are the spectators.
They want to feel the bike move around. Spin the back wheel, do wheelies and stoppies and if you are capable slide the back end.
I was one of those guys as a teenager so I began racing. I raced Z1 super bikes in the seventies. Over the years, I owned and raced 250 GP Hondas. 400 CC two strokes, many production bikes, an RC 30 Honda, an RG 500 GP bike and a bunch of other bikes. I even raced a Goldwing once !!
Of all the bikes I raced, the big worked super bikes were the most FUN. The 250’s were all about corner speed and being smooth. My 250 GP bike lap times were almost equal and sometimes faster than my super bike lap times. However, riding the super bike was a lot more fun than the 250 GP bike.
The Super bikes couldn’t corner anywhere near as fast as the 250. They had to be braked more and mostly braked while upright, turned in late and picked upright early on the exit and on the throttle hard. All this made for a lot of fun as the bike was all over the place. Bucking, weaving and pulling small power wheelies on a lean on the exit. This rarely happens on a 250 GP bike other than the weaving caused by the tyre loosing grip.
This is what the current MotoGP rider wants to feel again. They want to have some fun as well as win a race. Now they just open the throttle and the bike is controlled to a greater extent by electronics. Stoners Ducati may be an exception in the electronics department as he was power sliding that bike at most circuits and that can't happen if the electronics are cutting the power.
I ride track days at the Pasir Gudang circuit in Malaysia and the 600 cc bikes are much faster than i on my worked CBR1000RR through the corners.
As could be expected with a much more powerful bike, It is only through the corners that they can pass me, I make it all up again down the straights which can be a bit embarrassing to talk about back in the pits, but I have a ball as my bike will lift the front wheel at half lean on most long corners and it is easy to slide the back end. It’s the fun factor that makes me ride the bike and that is what the MotoGP riders want back. FUN.
Brian,
I totally agree and understand this as well, hence my saying it was hard to argue with Rossi "as a rider". But what we have to understand is that while he may be a superstar in his eyes and the adoring fans, to the corporate board room and the engineers, he is a highly paid lab rat. And sometimes lab rats get injected with stuff that is "fun" and other times, not so fun.
Well paid to push technology to the limit and prove/disprove their latest brain fart as to what will give their company competitive advantage on the track and finally in the marketplace. That 800cc "disaster" forced later/harder braking and slip limiting tech out of the corners to compensate for the reduced speed in the straights. New stuff was born. Of course you know where all that GP electronic telemetry, braking, tire compound tech is going. On your street bike in 3-5 years.
How it will be received is anyone's guess, but I remember all the howls of discontent when ABS brakes became available on bikes. How they didn't stop as quick (true in some cases) and only a pussy would have a bike with that crap, etc, etc. Hey, I was one of the disbelievers. Not anymore. ABS has saved my happy ass more than once.
As it is with all this electronic wizardry. The best thing about electronics is you can program it to be as intrusive or unobtrusive as you want, or shut it off entirely. After I did some intake/exhaust work on my G35, the damn thing was hitting the revlimiter before it would shift since the factory programmed it ridiculously low at 6600 RPM. Sent my ECU to be reflashed for fuel and increased rev limit to 7100. Thing screams now, takes full advantange of the better flow, and shifts right at max HP generation.
So some will moan and groan about the coming electronic intrusion into bike tech, but at the end of the day, you can always hack it to do what you want and how you want to have FUN.
I agree, a MotoGP rider is a highly paid test rider. Not everything they test is used on road bikes but a lot of the benefits of the equipment they do test, filters down and is used mainly on sports bikes.
Such as adjustable swing arm mounting points and top triple clamp adjustments. Electronic suspension adjustment, straight suspension linkages, longer swing arms to give forward weight bias, traction control is appearing on many road bikes. All the above has all been tested at MotoGP level.
I am a person who loves technology. I am, what is known as, an early adopter in the computer world. I am the same with my bikes. I fit my bikes with the best and latest equipment I can buy.
I have BST carbon fiber wheels and Brake Tech, Ceramic Matrix Composite brake disc fitted.
I have “Tire Watchâ€
Such as adjustable swing arm mounting points and top triple clamp adjustments. Electronic suspension adjustment, straight suspension linkages, longer swing arms to give forward weight bias, traction control is appearing on many road bikes. All the above has all been tested at MotoGP level.
I am a person who loves technology. I am, what is known as, an early adopter in the computer world. I am the same with my bikes. I fit my bikes with the best and latest equipment I can buy.
I have BST carbon fiber wheels and Brake Tech, Ceramic Matrix Composite brake disc fitted.
I have “Tire Watchâ€